Just when you'd thought you'd put an issue to bed, someone comes along and starts the conversation up all over again. In case you're unaware, I recently received a comment on the introduction to my series Defending the Doctrines of Grace and God's Sovereignty. It was not a nice comment. Apparently one of our friends from the CAHCT was content with simply throwing me out for *gasp* challenging them to be honest. They left their name as "Bonnie" so I will address my reply as such. Why not simply respond in the comment section you may ask? Because I want this out where it will be seen by many, because it adds weight to the assertions I made about CAHCT. Let's begin.
"Andrew, did you read all of the files in that Facebook group? Did you follow the rules posted in the group? You know, if you don't like to play by the rules, you're not allowed on the playground - that's how it works in the real world. "
Notice the condescension? The animus? No, in the real world people aren't allowed to slander or libel anyone they like for the "crime" of believing differently. Yes, I did read all the rules, including the one that states that Calvinists aren't allowed to defend themselves or their beliefs if it isn't allowed by the OP of a thread. How very open and honest of them! (End Sarcasm) "Christians" Against the "Heresy" of Calvinism and TULIP, is a hate group, pure and simple. They needed to be called out for their hate, and I did so by showing them a mirror. Did you read any of the articles in my series where I show screenshots of their hate and ignorance? Judging by this comment, no, you didn't.
""They reveled in their ignorance"; and are you not also reveling in your "vast knowledge" and yet calling them out? And WHO is being a little smug, since you also call THEM a cult."
It isn't reveling in knowledge to correct hate, slander, ignorance, and misinformation. The only one being smug so far is yourself. And yes, they are a cult. They show a good number of cult-like tendencies. In fact, in case you were unaware, one of the most prolific posters and moderators there also belongs to the cult of King James Onlyism. How about we list some of those cult-like tendencies, shall we?
Do they honestly evaluate their position as well as the other side's? Obviously not, so there's strike one.
Are experts or historical figures that disagree with their position labeled with derogatory names? Yes. Strike two.
Is information or people, that contradict the teaching of the group removed without explanation? Yes. Strike three.
Does the group have an "us versus them" mentality? Yes. Strike four. And so on and so on. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...you get the idea.
"I've not yet found a Calvinist who doesn't claim to be be misrepresented. How does that work? Is everybody but a Calvinist just plain incapable of understanding the vast mysteries of the "doctrines of grace"? Is everybody else just that stupid, do you think? Or is it only the "elect" who are granted that privilege? "
No, it's just that its far easier to build a strawman of the truth rather than confront it. If you don't have the correct information, try doing something novel. Learn what it is you're criticizing first. I've shown about a dozen instances of blatant misrepresentations in my series, yet you still claim it isn't happening? Or is it just that we're all liars as you seem to be insinuating?
"By the insulting "tone" of this blog post, I don't see why any of them would take the trouble come over here and read what you have written, as it is all old news to them anyways."
Insulting tone! You actually have the gall to talk to me about the "insulting tone" of my blog post while the group you are a part of regularly insults Calvinists for sport, and then bans them when they get upset about it?!?! Your lack of self awareness is astounding! Hypocrisy thy name is CAHCT! Also, if these arguments are so old and they've heard them all before, then why are they still getting them so wrong? It should be easy to refute these "old arguments" they've supposedly heard so many times, yet instead they ban people for broaching them. Its also funny that they leave the group as open to see, yet you have to be accepted into the group to post there. Then when you try to correct their ignorance they ban you. This is deliberate antagonization.
"Fear actually has nothing to do with it. It's called discretion. It's understanding what a profitable use of time is. John Calvin wrote his Institutes before he was 30 years old, a baby in the theological world. Non-Calvinists who have studied them are perfectly capable of understanding and debating them if they thought it was a profitable use of their time."
So instead they think it's a profitable use of their time to misrepresent and mock Calvinists? And discretion? It isn't discretion, it's called cognitive dissonance. To my recollection I never mentioned fear. Also, your point on Calvin doesn't logically follow with the rest of your point. Stephen Hawking was in his early thirties when he discovered black hole mechanics, does that make him somehow incorrect? Of course not. And I know of many "non-calvinists" who understand the doctrines of grace, and I routinely debate them. They're polite, cordial, and I readily call them my brothers and sisters in Christ. Your group can't seem to grasp that concept. If you don't believe lock step as they do, you're a heretic.
"By the way, if you want to learn anything about hatred, Calvin is your man. "
Oh boy, when in doubt the Arminian always screams "Servetus!". (Yawn!) Also, because you appearing know this, Calvinism is simply shorthand for the Doctrines of Grace. We don't blindly follow John Calvin as if he were somehow infallible. Oh, and what you've done here is called the genetic fallacy.
"True love is gentle when it needs to be, is strong when it needs to be, and it always rejoices in the truth."
Yet there is no love in the group you're defending! Turn those words back on the hate group known as CAHCT! There is no gentle love or even firm love, it's straight hatred for Calvinism and Calvinists! It's well documented in my articles, from their own keyboards!
"If you are going to accuse other people of being ignorant and smug, maybe you should first practice what you preach, Mr. Metal Minister. Seems you are a quite proud of yourself. Did you read what you wrote about yourself, as if you have the truth all nailed down?"
First, I didn't write anything about myself, and second it isn't smugness to point out error. This is an appeal to emotion, and an attempted ad hominem towards me. I am not "proud of myself", but I will not let anyone detract from God's holiness and sovereignty in an attempt to insult and spread hatred of others. You seem incapable of seeing the forest for the trees, and are defending the very ones who in their smugness and pride are spreading that hatred and venom. Do you see that? Is there any call to repentance on their page? Any preaching of the Gospel? No, there isn't, yet I ended every article with a call to repentance and faith. You'd have known that if you'd bothered to read any of them. Sadly you're as caught in the cult-think as any of the others.
"Honestly now, DID you read their group files and try to understand their position, and abide by the group rules, or did you barge in there demanding your own way, like many other Calvinists who have gone in before you?"
Defending the truth and correcting lies isn't "trying to get my own way". Do you think about this emotionalism before you type it? If demanding honesty is demanding my own way, then yes, I'm glad to say I demand honesty.
"You did understand the group's purpose, right? It wasn't to defend Calvinism, but to REFUTE it, not to pat your backs and congratulate you for what they consider doctrinal ERROR."
If they simply viewed it as error, then we could've had a good discussion, like I do regularly with other Arminians, however their purpose isn't to refute anything if they don't even have a proper understanding of what it is they're trying to refute! It's pure arrogance to claim to have all the answers when one doesn't even understand the question. I've debated Arminians many times, I know the arguments well, yet you and the others in that group don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that perhaps you're incorrect on Calvinism and it's teachings. Instead, as i pointed out, you seem to revel in the ignorance, and post it freely and repeatedly no matter how many times your strawmen are exposed. I don't expect a "pat on the back" (more snide condescension on your part) but I do demand honesty.
"Not to apologize for their position, but to defend it against yours. That means you should expect to be offended by the position they are taking, right? "
No, I shouldn't be offended by their position, and the fact that you believe that speaks volumes. I expect to disagree with their opinions, not be offended by their outright hatred of me and those who believe the way I do. Had there simply been a disagreement between us, I would've happily engaged in civil discussion with all of them, but it is a group of hate and vitriol that needed to be called out for their very unChristlike manner.
"If you believe in any "ism", you are following a man-made system, and that is a problem in and of itself. Think about it."
Perhaps you should think about it as well, since you belong to two "ism's". Arminianism and Synergism. The "man made" aspect is not denied, it is simply shorthand for what we believe the Bible, and God are teaching. One last thing to consider, I certainly don't begrudge anyone having a Facebook group where they can go and gripe about people they disagree with, but it's the height of arrogance to openly insult and call satanic those who are brothers and sisters in Christ. It borders on the unpardonable sin! If you wish to have a discussion, then you must allow the back and forth of normal discourse. However if you wish to have a safe place to vent frustrations and blow off steam, then make it a closed group where no one else can see what's being posted. Otherwise expect people to call you out for it your hatred and bigotry. It's arrogant, and lacking in honesty to create a group based on an incorrect understanding of others, then to broadcast hate and silence those who attempt to correct you. It's tyrannical and smacks of cultism. I still pray that God blesses you and them Bonnie, but I will not tolerate dishonesty being attached to God or other Christians.
If I'm wrong, and you are not a part of CAHCT, then I sincerely apologize and I also urge you to follow the link in my introduction to the series to their Facebook page, and read the rest. It will spell things out vividly.
(Comment Originally Posted Here:http://etchedinsteel.blogspot.com/2016/06/was-recently-pointed-to-facebook-group.html?m=1 )
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